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Thread: Bad Advise?

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    M&S Elite Member Cardiochris's Avatar
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    Default Bad Advise?

    We've all seen it, someone giving advise that you know is just wrong.
    Why do some ppl who find this place get such an urge to give advise, that often goes against everything here????

    And I don't know that much, (so I'm sure I miss a lotta stuff) but I bet some of you guys .. have to look the other way (or whatever you do) PLENTY of times!

    Me, I try to ignore it, but when it comes right after something I've said.... it just starts to grow.. and bugs me. Till I come back and say something, oh I try to be nice But

    But, uh, just hafta wonder what we're spose to do when we see someone telling somebody to eat something totally unhealthy or giving horrible lifting advise or??????
    When it's all over said and done, you're gonna regret the things you 'didn't do', more than the things you did.
    (I think that was Mark Twain)

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    Regular Poster Wizz's Avatar
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    Best thing to do would be to give them a negative rep and also explain in a post why what they have said is wrong.

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    M&S Elite Member Cardiochris's Avatar
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    But I dunno, that one sounds kinda harsh to me. For someone trying to help.

    What do those things do anyways?
    When it's all over said and done, you're gonna regret the things you 'didn't do', more than the things you did.
    (I think that was Mark Twain)

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    Kettlebells' Angel !!!! 5kgLifter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiochris View Post
    We've all seen it, someone giving advise that you know is just wrong.
    Why do some ppl who find this place get such an urge to give advise, that often goes against everything here????

    And I don't know that much, (so I'm sure I miss a lotta stuff) but I bet some of you guys .. have to look the other way (or whatever you do) PLENTY of times!

    Me, I try to ignore it, but when it comes right after something I've said.... it just starts to grow.. and bugs me. Till I come back and say something, oh I try to be nice But

    But, uh, just hafta wonder what we're spose to do when we see someone telling somebody to eat something totally unhealthy or giving horrible lifting advise or??????
    Well, I don't give neg reps, so that wouldn't be my choice of action.

    Personally, if I give advice and they choose to ignore it, or prefer to go with someone else's recommendations, then I at least know that I gave the advice and that's all that really counts. It's possible that I could end up giving the wrong advice, as could anyone else, so it's up to the OP to actually go and do their research on the topic after being given various options.
    On some subjects, I just give up, because the general consensus just ends up shooting it down anyway, so I no longer waste my time on some issues.
    1-Finger Deadlift, 1RM: 80.3lbs/36.5kg

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    Regular Poster Wizz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardiochris View Post
    But I dunno, that one sounds kinda harsh to me. For someone trying to help.

    What do those things do anyways?
    Well for someone legitimately trying to help you could just explain to them why they are wrong. But you specifically asked about someone who gives really 'horrible lifting advice' or 'telling someone to eat something totally unhealthy'.

    But yeah, as 5kg said, good advice from one person can seem to be terrible advice to another as everyone is different etc.

    I guess it just depends on the situation.

  6. #6
    Watchin what yer doin! tadolfi's Avatar
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    Nicely put 5kg!!

    Cardiochris,
    Keep in mind that some folks feel they have the almighty secret to what works. It worked for them, so it has validity in their mind.
    What is not taken in to account in some cases, is the trainees background or how they will interpret a post.

    While some of us will air on the side of caution and speak in more "general" terms, you will occassionally have the keyboard tough talker that has proven, somehow, that the norm is not always the way and not everything you hear is truth. And there is nothing wrong with that as this is actually an entertainment format and not an official pay for training advise environment.

    So for the most part you just let it roll and give everyone a chance to say what they think...as long as it does not become personal or discriminatory and keeps within the general rules.
    And there are always exceptions to the rules no matter how iron clad we may think they are -
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    Yes, I am a Moderator

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    M&S Elite Member Cardiochris's Avatar
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    Yeah, some great points. And reminds me of something else; arguments. I hang out on a couple (fishing) boards over here on the W coast, and things can get nasty at times And I just hate it when a mod wants to keep everything just peachy and starts deleting stuff.

    Cuz, I've noticed over here, that's when the good stuff starts coming out and I learn some things. LOL And yeah, I guess there's never going to be shortage of opinions on the subject of losing weight, fitness and building muscle. Reminds me of religion; everyone has their opinion, everyone else is wrong.
    When it's all over said and done, you're gonna regret the things you 'didn't do', more than the things you did.
    (I think that was Mark Twain)

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    Default

    I was talking to this guy down my old gym for ages about he he "used to be a powerlifter" and how much he enjoyed it blah blah blah....

    So yeah, he asked me to spot him, he said he'd done this weight every week for the past month or so, so shouldn't have much trouble. So he angers himself up, and then lowers the 200kg bar about an inch, maybe an inch and a half, and then "reps" with this for 2 reps and comes up looking nackered and really happy with himself.

    I said nothing, but was laughing so hard inside I had to go to the toilet :P haha
    Pain is perceptive and can be blocked out with enough concentration. Block it out, and that extra rep or two won't be an issue.

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    Coming Up The Ranks Kassandre's Avatar
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    Default

    I think it is also important for the person seeking advice to do so responsibly. The beauty of these forums, and the internet, is the wealth of information and the sharing of experiences and ideas. This site is great for organizing those ideas that are out there. I just can't understand getting defensive about training protocols because everyone is going to response differently to different training methods.

    I am hesitant to call an idea bad, unless they are blatantly dangerous and there is just no foundation--at all. I train with my goals, my health and staying injury-free, in mind. I like to ask questions. And I like to learn about various training techniques. And, in the end, I decide (and sometimes my coach) what information I incorporate into my program.
    When you do the common things in life in an uncommon way, you will command the attention of the world.

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    Default

    In my opinion, if the more experienced people on here know that the advice being given is bad, please speak up. Of course the recipient of the info should also do their own research, however, their are people on here like me who are just beginners and wouldn't know if the advice being given is incorrect, thus exposing them to injury.

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    Kettlebells' Angel !!!! 5kgLifter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chips13p View Post
    I was talking to this guy down my old gym for ages about he he "used to be a powerlifter" and how much he enjoyed it blah blah blah....

    So yeah, he asked me to spot him, he said he'd done this weight every week for the past month or so, so shouldn't have much trouble. So he angers himself up, and then lowers the 200kg bar about an inch, maybe an inch and a half, and then "reps" with this for 2 reps and comes up looking nackered and really happy with himself.

    I said nothing, but was laughing so hard inside I had to go to the toilet :P haha
    It's probable that the limited range lift that he did that day is exactly what he intended to do, so yes he'd have been pleased with his results. I have been reading up on a lot of stuff, powerlifting included, and it's actually a technique that's used within the sport with a specific purpose in mind...so, in actual fact, while you found it comical, maybe you should have just asked him the purpose behind the move, you may have been pleasantly surprised...we all make this error, because we dismiss things that don't fit with what we already know, but that may only because we've not yet learned about it, and not necessarily because it's worthless/laughable...
    1-Finger Deadlift, 1RM: 80.3lbs/36.5kg

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    M&S Injury Advisor yitmy's Avatar
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    Giving people advice when they do not solicit it is a bad way to go, for it is often ill received. A better approach would be to encourage the guy and then ask what is that for. He may have other reasons for doing a particular activity which may or may not be right. But who are we to tell someone they are wrong, especially if the guy was a powerlifter and doing it for years. How would you feel if someone came up to you and said that what you are doing is wrong. What would you feel?
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    Seasoned M&S Veteran Spartigus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yitmy View Post
    Giving people advice when they do not solicit it is a bad way to go, for it is often ill received. A better approach would be to encourage the guy and then ask what is that for. He may have other reasons for doing a particular activity which may or may not be right. But who are we to tell someone they are wrong, especially if the guy was a powerlifter and doing it for years. How would you feel if someone came up to you and said that what you are doing is wrong. What would you feel?
    Exactly! I would rep you but i need to spread it round .
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    Frequent Poster Richiboi's Avatar
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    Before i became a member my knoledge was very limited but after hours/DAYS of reading and browsing (still doing it!) iv learned so much but the funny thing is... THERES MORE! i even think the really experienced people on here still find stuff they didnt know. the mystery of health and fitness is huge but with my limited knoledge i try and help but if im unsure on replying incase i give ill informed advice i just leave it to the more experienced person and hopefully one day ill be that experienced person.
    Last edited by Richiboi; 06-18-2010 at 03:10 AM.
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    Coming Up The Ranks TheMightyStu's Avatar
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    I hate to sound negative, but...

    I've only been on this site a few months, and while I read a lot of the threads, I really only bother posting in a few, because quite simply, there are threads filled with people who have been training "a couple" of years, who are all genuinely TRYING to be helpful (I honestly believe that!), but their knowledge base simply isn't at the point where they should be giving advice, at least not from an expert/coach/trainer's perspective. The last thing I need to is get jumped on, but bringing in real world science, or being viewed as the 'new guy' who just wants to show off how much he knows. On the other hand, there are a couple of more experienced members on here who while I respect them, I believe that their opinions and thoughts are completely outdated and while I won't say they're incorrect, I will say their approaches are 'less than optimal'.

    That's the double edge sword of an internet forum,... I'm sure that were I a few years younger, I'd be on here all day disputing every damn piece of advice given out -lol

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    Last edited by TheMightyStu; 06-18-2010 at 07:45 AM.
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    Trusted Advisor Doug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richiboi View Post
    Before i became a member my knoledge was very limited but after hours/DAYS of reading and browsing (still doing it!) iv learned so much but the funny thing is... THERES MORE! i even think the really experienced people on here still find stuff they didnt know. the mystery of health and fitness is huge but with my limited knoledge i try and help but if im unsure on replying incase i give ill informed advice i just leave it to the more experienced person and hopefully one day ill be that experienced person.
    We are all forever learning new things, new studies are coming out all the time. Most of the advice given on this forum is general advice, remember what works for one person may not work for another. Finding out if a particlular diet or training is working or not is easily checked by constantly monitoring a persons total body fat and fat free mass.
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    Former M&S Editor Steve's Avatar
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    I have the pleasure of digesting information each and every day from top-named bodybuilders across the natural spectrum. I also am familiar with the studies, and well-read in the genre, familiar with nearly every major name in the natural game, from John Christy to Casey Butt.

    I have friends that live and die by full body routines, and I have friends that live and die by extreme volume. I have friends that are elite natural powerlifters, and I have casual lifting friends that train only several times a week and are as strong as elite level powerlifters. I also have friends that swear by HIT training.

    I have friends that swear by Paleo, friends that swear by high carbs, and friends that swear by carb cycling.

    I have friends that disagree with friends that disagree with friends that disagree with friends that disagree with friends that disagree with friends that disagree with friends.

    One thing I will say is that there is only one Gospel for each of us. Train hard, eat smart, and stay basic. Read, listen and learn. Learn, through experimentation, what works for you.

    I have seen many a wise man with many years in this business state that his way is the only way.

    The deceased natural John Christy had spent over 60,000 hours training natural athletes. His programs were generally 2 days per week, using a very limited set of compound lifts.

    Casey Butt has studied the training of naturals throughout the last 60 years, and is a huge proponent of fullbody routines.

    And then we have modern natural bodybuilders. Almost every one of them uses a split. And they have amazing physiques.

    Paul Anderson trained 6 times per week, squatting three times per week. Grimek did high rep sets and higher volume and frequency. Hepburn squatted and deadlifted multiple times per week. All very different approaches. But all used heavy weight, food and simple lifts.

    One thing I have learned from all of this is that everything works, just not for everyone, and just not all the time. I have also learned that the basics make the most sense, and common sense should be involved with diet and training. Hard work and common sense are never outdated.

    Nearly every bodybuilder I have every met succeeded by training hard and eating smart. They all have pet nutrition plans, training systems, and diet beliefs.

    In the immortal words of Hulk Hogan... train, say your prayers and eat your vitamins.
    Last edited by Steve; 06-18-2010 at 01:45 PM.
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    Coming Up The Ranks Fordrus's Avatar
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    Talking I appreciate this thread

    This is interesting and excellent, because from all my own reading and research, it strikes at the heart of everything we do and talk about in fitness, muscle, and strength. I love what Doug, 5kg, and Bendthebar are saying, because the conclusion I've come to is really similar: Everybody is different, even though we're all the same. XD The idiot advice you see one guy giving can easily be a breath of fresh air to another guy.

    Still, it's INSANE how much wrong there is in the world of muscle building and weight loss. Absolutely barking MAD. It ticks me off in a powerful way- my hypothesis about why is that nobody marketing their crap cares to truly prove that their crap is really effective- all they need to make money, to sell issues, to get ad revenue- is to show that 'some studies show that..." their product/philosophy/training might could would should oughtta maybe kinda sorta almost help somebody out.

    If I see one more site that claims that, "This is it- the Final word of Science on muscle-building!" I'm going to roar and punch the founder. XD

    That said, I'm with what I perceive to be what Doug, Bend, 5kg, and others are saying:

    Training, Diet, and Supplementation are requisite. The specific plan you have may differ from another guy's plan. Be careful about thinking their plan is stupid- odd things have worked for specific people in the past, and while we pretend to know tons about muscle building, what we know only applies in so many cases. In other words, training, diet, supplementation. Try crap out. Don't do really weird crap. The idea is that you try it out, adjust as necessary.

    I think I know a good standard for telling somebody off on the forums- if anybody tries to get someone on here to drink a mercury supplement, tell that fudging moron to go boil himself. XD

    Otherwise, as others have mentioned, don't waste time trying to correct what others say- but DO post a quick, "That sounds contrary to other advice I've heard, dude. I'm worried it may be bad advice. Can you explain it better?" Statements like that can and do blow up, but not too often, and it waves a red flag, shows the real state of things, and throws the ball into the advice-giver's court- let's the asker know there may be dissent, and the giver know that either somebody doesn't understand where he/she is coming from, or that they may be giving out bunk advice.

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    Coming Up The Ranks Fordrus's Avatar
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    Cool Addendum

    For the record, I gave some advice for my first time to Gardenia earlier this morning. I'd love it if one of ya'll would go over it and PM me if it was good or bad. I really, really think it was good, but after he posted back, I had this- OH SHIZ moment- because I realized that I'd just offered advice, and while I've rarely offered advice on weight lifting more specific than, "You should totally do it!" it was sort of a scary experience.

    I do Agree with Stu, too- I'm one of those guys that probably ought not to be giving advice, in my way. At the same time, people come to internet forums because they can't/won't afford personal trainer's fees- I know when I come here, it isn't because I want the advice I would get/have been given by 'pros' (some of the people who I've paid 30 bucks for half an hour of their time (Okay, I usually got it free, but that was the going rate) didn't actually know anything more than I did. I've gotten some of the worst advice from 'pros'- stuff that is honestly, truly, really bad- the kind of advice CardioChris mentioned at the beginning.)

    When I come to an internet forum, I want to talk it out with my guys- but I don't have weight lifting guys, I have a huge anonymous gym where I've met a few great people who have to get in, get out, and get back to work, just like I do. Not much time to hash out routines or diets with them. But yeah, indeed, I want the guy who uses low-volume and sees gains to pop up, and the guy who thinks he's a doughhead for it to pop up, too. I learn the most watching people defend and attack different ideas. (I don't mean to start fights, though!)

    We can't trust official media, it's all advertising. Real Science doesn't seem to know enough about exactly what we want to say it loud and clear, and a lot of science that is done is the 'funded by XXX supp company' kind that you can't trust. A lot of trainers are people just like us who read a lot, took a test, and now get to pretend like God on the weightroom floor (Sorry to the Exercise Science majors out there- I know we do know a lot- but what it seems we don't understand are all some of the most important parts! XD) It's better to hear it discussed amongst friends, in a place where you know there are many watching, than to feel like you have to trust the freaking quack that his formula will grow your hair rather than make it fall out, you know what I'm sayin'?

    And if you feel that what I'm saying is stupid, do say so! I appreciate it not in so many words, but telling me you disagree- that's useful stuff right there. My old music teacher used to say, "If you cannot make a joyous sound, at least make a loud one! A loud, bad sound I can help you fix- a quiet, bad sound persists!" Often learn the most when someone disagrees with me.

    Anyway, sorry for the long double post, that's just Ford being Ford. XD Good luck, all, wish ya'll great results!

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    Former M&S Editor Steve's Avatar
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    I was reading John Christy's book last night and he made an important point...

    Research guides us, but empirical data is what we LIVE. Drug companies release drugs based on studies, but they live and die by empirical data. It's the same with supplement companies, training studies, training books and protocols, etc.

    In lifting, we have to look for the themes that are common within the training and dieting of those that are successful - naturals that are successful. This is a meta analysis of empirical data. These truths are the cornerstones of lifting. They generally are:

    1) Lift a heavier rock today then you lifted yesterday.
    2) Eat enough to gain weight.
    3) Get enough rest.

    As you start to peel the onion there are - of course - deeper themes and other important ideas.

    One aspect of lifting often ignored is enjoyment. I lift how I lift because I want to lift that way - for enjoyment. Training has to be enjoyable. And when it is, usually success follows. Find a sensible way to train, personalize it to fit your body and needs, and enjoy the ride. Ignore the guys screaming..."my way is the only way!" It's ok to experiment. It's ok to listen to studies. But it's not ok to throw out everything that's working for something that might work. Morph or evolve, but don't constantly switch.

    I have pet beliefs. Yet I try not to push them on everyone and anyone. If I see someone eager, persistent, training hard and eating good, I let them go. They will learn. I surely don't want to evangelize them and pull them into my uber Training System Y. I am tempted every day to push. But pushing doesn't always work well - I've learned from parenting. You have to allow your children to make mistakes, and to play.

    I always tell the young guys to remember something important about the way "Joe X" trains today...Most "Joe X's" didn't make their gains on the program they use today. So while Joe X is using System Y today, you really should be asking how he trained when he didn't have a clue what he was doing, yet still made gains. He will tell you about his mistakes, and he will tell you what he thinks lead to his success.

    Jay Cutler might use FST-7 (or whatever he is using now), but did he make most of his gains on FST-7?
    Mike Mentzer may have used Heavy Duty, but did he make most of his gains on Heavy Duty?

    Even Arnold made a fair share of his gains on full body training, and not using the volume system that we associate with Ahhh-nold.

    Anyway, I'm getting long winded.
    Last edited by Steve; 06-18-2010 at 03:30 PM.
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    Coming Up The Ranks TheMightyStu's Avatar
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    I'll echo what's been said by BTB in that the basics are not complicated, but you have to question the advice of someone who tries to give the impression that they know what they're talking about, when they in no way look the part (the old example of the personal trainer who is out of shape) of someone who has all the answers -lol.

    S
    WNBF & USBF Natural Pro

  22. #22
    Former M&S Editor Steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyStu View Post
    but you have to question the advice of someone who tries to give the impression that they know what they're talking about, when they in no way look the part (the old example of the personal trainer who is out of shape) of someone who has all the answers -lol.

    S
    If there are specific issue and advice that are prevalent on the forum that you disagree with, I encourage you to open up and talk about it. All of us are here to learn, and we sure would like to hear what you have to say...
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    Ambassador of pain Possum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyStu View Post
    I hate to sound negative, but...

    I've only been on this site a few months, and while I read a lot of the threads, I really only bother posting in a few, because quite simply, there are threads filled with people who have been training "a couple" of years, who are all genuinely TRYING to be helpful (I honestly believe that!), but their knowledge base simply isn't at the point where they should be giving advice, at least not from an expert/coach/trainer's perspective. The last thing I need to is get jumped on, but bringing in real world science, or being viewed as the 'new guy' who just wants to show off how much he knows. On the other hand, there are a couple of more experienced members on here who while I respect them, I believe that their opinions and thoughts are completely outdated and while I won't say they're incorrect, I will say their approaches are 'less than optimal'.

    That's the double edge sword of an internet forum,... I'm sure that were I a few years younger, I'd be on here all day disputing every damn piece of advice given out -lol

    S
    I agree with this, also a lot of sheeping going around. Like if 1 person says something its then gospel.

    The internet is unfortunately filled with conflicting information and idiots thinking they are right. The fact of the matter is you have to gather knowledge from a wide variety of imo professional and scientific sources, I will personally never vouch for something unless I have personally tried it or read several independent scientific studies into it.
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  24. #24
    Coming Up The Ranks Fordrus's Avatar
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    I will personally never vouch for something unless I have personally tried it or read several independent scientific studies into it.
    That's AWESOME! Thinking about it, I should clarify that a bit- I LOVE REAL science on muscle building, weight loss, and the like. Real science- independent, controlled, well-done science- that is the key, the holy grail, the golden city. Eventually, we will have our bodies so well figured out the we can delinate the differences in each person's body perfectly. We'll be able to say, with near-perfect accuracy: "You're a type B, A screened, C modified, mesoendoectopolymorph, and if you do 1., 2., and 3., you will pack on muscle until X weight, at which point you will need to do Y to gain more. If you want to lose weight, do Z, B, and A, until point C."

    The problem is that every single quack advertises his product or program as being able to do just this sort of thing. That's exasperating- especially the ones that are mildly tempered enough and well-disguised to be somewhat convincing. It's like a chase scene in a cartoon- find one useful tidbit, discover useful tidbit is stupid elsewhere. Open up other closet, find out useful tidbit might be useful after all, along with another piece to the puzzle- only to find out from more reliable sources that they're BOTH worthless. It's seriously like Wile E. Coyote and the Roadrunner running around through the woodwork. XD

    In other words, /salute Possum- meant no disrespect. Real pros with real knowledge are powerful things, it's the fake ones I'm leery of. Telling the difference can be a beast! (and can differ on different topics and areas of emphasis!

    And that leads to the big suckness- since I want to know more, I'm never content with just what I know now- meaning I'm always searching. Searching is the right path, I think, but it puts me in a great spot to get duped by charlatans.

    Keep Soldierin' on, though! We'll get to the truth of the matter in the end!

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    I think there are lots of different ways to achieve the same goal, often disputed and opinionated but what works for one perhaps doesn't work for another, sure if there are people giving bad advice on purpose then we you should beat them down lol. As micuzzo says, the more experienced users or mods should speak up if they see really poor advice, maybe it's just a case of re-educating the 'poster' via a private message! For the most part though i have only seen good and helpful advice..........so far lol!

 

 

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