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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Please limit the personal attacks. Debate the topic intelligently or move along.
    Personal attack? The post towards Doug was in good jest. That member is somebody who speaks a lot of sense. I like the way that they simply state that they find particular products beneficial to them.

    I note that you call me out on making statements that may not be relevant - something I am sometimes guilty of, I agree. But not others it seems. Integrity - an unappreciated quality, would you agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by madjinx View Post
    You just said "maybe" enough to show you or muscletech really dont know one way or the other.
    This is a point I frequently highlight. Every product by certain companies carry huge outlandish statements on their products. And then each and every product goes on (small print, natch) to state comments containing words such as 'may', 'might', 'could', 'possibly', etc.

    People buying these products should really think about the consequences of such a statement. It is no different from me saying I am planning on racing Usain Bolt in the 100m. And then stating that I 'could' win. That statement isn't false, is it? I could win, agreed? Just like I could 'possibly' dead lift 400Kg. Neither are remotely likely, but my original statements still hold. You realise the insignificance of such statements now, I hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by madjinx View Post
    You really have to sell you sole to be a company rep.
    And it really need not be that way. As most people who read these threads, I am not high on supplements. But I certainly would not say that no product as any use for anybody. My real issue with supplements is the way that the representatives shill them.

    Projecting them to be the magical root that will solve every imaginable issue. I think Doug would be a good representative for USN. Why so? Because that member has recommended many a product by that company. And the recommendations have been sober; not over inflated. This carries far more weight than the outlandish propositions that other products seem to ride on.


    This particular product may well be a benefit to some. I haven't used it so I have no personal opinion. But as highlighted, the so called magical potion within said product has been present in cheaper alternatives for some time. So that tempers any excitement I have, that's for sure.


    As for 'science' that somebody keeps harping on about, small scale studies should not be represented as science. They are greatly differing concepts. Science is about proving or disproving theories. It's not about gathering data from a small source.
    Last edited by darrenash; 05-23-2014 at 04:01 AM. Reason: typo

  2. #27
    Trusted Advisor Doug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrenash View Post
    Personal attack? The post towards Doug was in good jest.
    and taken in jest

    Quote Originally Posted by darrenash View Post
    I think Doug would be a good representative for USN. Why so? Because that member has recommended many a product by that company. And the recommendations have been sober; not over inflated. This carries far more weight than the outlandish propositions that other products seem to ride on.
    lol...I do recommend and sell USN supplements, along with a lot of other supplements from different supplement companies, and at internet prices. I only sell the ones that I have had good feedback from my gym members and other members of the public. If I stock a supplement and I get negative feedback then I will no longer sell that supplement.
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  3. #28
    Coming Up The Ranks BlueRev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrenash View Post
    berp berp
    So let me get this right, Company's shouldn't market their supplements with backed studies?
    They shouldn't cite those studies because "everyone wont achieve those results"
    K.

    No one here said it's magic, But will it help in the right situation? (training and diet in check)
    Yes that's been proven.

    Science is pursuing knowledge. Testing, Trail and error, etc. TO say that studies on supplements and looking at the chemical makeup/pathways/reactions in the body is not science, I don't know what is.

    Knowledge changes with time, This form of HMB-FA is superior to the current HMBCA and HMb on the market.
    To ignore the actual science (plasma levels etc) is just ignorance.


    We have personally given out more "free" bottles of clear muscle within the last month for real life loggers than any other company has done.
    YOu won't find a company who invests more into their customer base.
    Last edited by BlueRev; 05-23-2014 at 11:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    I do recommend and sell USN supplements, along with a lot of other supplements from different supplement companies, and at internet prices. I only sell the ones that I have had good feedback from my gym members and other members of the public. If I stock a supplement and I get negative feedback then I will no longer sell that supplement.
    This is why your recommendations are more valid. Speaking of USN, I do like their banana flavoured whey powder. That stuff tastes good even with just water.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRev View Post
    So let me get this right, Company's shouldn't market their supplements with backed studies?
    They shouldn't cite those studies because "everyone wont achieve those results"
    K.

    No one here said it's magic, But will it help in the right situation? (training and diet in check)
    Yes that's been proven.

    Science is pursuing knowledge. Testing, Trail and error, etc. TO say that studies on supplements and looking at the chemical makeup/pathways/reactions in the body is not science, I don't know what is.

    Knowledge changes with time, This form of HMB-FA is superior to the current HMBCA and HMb on the market.
    To ignore the actual science (plasma levels etc) is just ignorance.


    We have personally given out more "free" bottles of clear muscle within the last month for real life loggers than any other company has done.
    YOu won't find a company who invests more into their customer base.
    BlueRev, maybe I've missed something so will go back through the thread and read again more closely ...but is the studies being conducted now with the free product loggers the basis for the real studies that are currently lacking, and the results from the current loggers part of the testing to later write for journals?

    I am one to believe in certain supplements, and have logged proof in other areas of the internet of my own supplement useage, but after 30+ years of training fullbody every other day I find it sort of ridiculous to not expect a greater gain out of those loggers even without the use of Clear Muscle. This is not meant as dig or to be disrespectful while at the same time is meant to be sensible with no need for science to evaluate the outcome of hard work.

    I just do not see Clear Muscle being magical in the aspect of gaining muscle beyond the workout regimen detailed in the studies MuscleTech is claiming, and the training that the loggers must follow. What I have seen with my own eyes is a bunch of guys chosen for the logging who claim to be training for three or more years yet look like they have never lifted anything heavier than their shoes, and half of them in their before pics look like they are purposely drooping their shoulders, backs bent over, etc, like they are intentionally looking as poorly trained and out of shape as possible to start these studies.

    So far, from what I have seen with my own eyes, and know personally of some of the study loggers chosen, it makes Clear Muscle look like a highly-priced ripoff. The after pics study pictures of most of the chosen loggers will surely show the subjects standing broad with shoulders back looking strong. Late night television advertisers tricks if you will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TnRob View Post
    So far, from what I have seen with my own eyes, and know personally of some of the study loggers chosen, it makes Clear Muscle look like a highly-priced ripoff. The after pics study pictures of most of the chosen loggers will surely show the subjects standing broad with shoulders back looking strong. Late night television advertisers tricks if you will.
    Well, ignoring the grammar, I'd say, you've hit this one dead on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darrenash View Post
    Well, ignoring the grammar, I'd say, you've hit this one dead on.
    I thought so as well. Every few months a company will come up with THE PERFECT PILL that will put all other supplement companies out of business forever.

  8. #33
    M&S Elite Member EdHz's Avatar
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    There's a section on the documentary film Bigger, Stronger, Faster where the filmmaker goes to a photo shoot for a supp. The model tells him he uses steroids. Then, when the filmmaker speaks to a photographer, he is told that before and after photos are sometimes taken on the same day - changes in lighting, posture and makeup can make the same guy look remarkably different.

    I'm not saying that Clear Muscle engages in these sort of practices; I honestly don't know. But when there is anecdotal evidence of these sorts of things going on, I think it's very reasonable to be skeptical of "magic pill" type claims.


    No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training…what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. – Socrates

  9. #34
    M&S Power User Nezzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdHz View Post
    There's a section on the documentary film Bigger, Stronger, Faster where the filmmaker goes to a photo shoot for a supp. The model tells him he uses steroids. Then, when the filmmaker speaks to a photographer, he is told that before and after photos are sometimes taken on the same day - changes in lighting, posture and makeup can make the same guy look remarkably different.

    I'm not saying that Clear Muscle engages in these sort of practices; I honestly don't know. But when there is anecdotal evidence of these sorts of things going on, I think it's very reasonable to be skeptical of "magic pill" type claims.
    There is a video on youtube of someone doing a before and after shot within about 6 hrs of each other, I'll find it when I get home and post it; youtube is blocked at work. Basic principle is go to the sauna, thoroughly dehydrate, work up a good bicep/chest pump doing some exercises then take the after picture. Then drink a gallon of chocolate milk and sit on the sofa for a few hours before taking the before picture.
    Last edited by Nezzy; 05-27-2014 at 07:30 AM.
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  10. #35
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    2013 Gym PRs
    Squat = 140kg ...... Deadlift = 180kg ...... Bench = 95kg
    2014 Gym PRs
    Squat = 162.5kg ...... Deadlift = 192.5kg ...... Bench = 105kg
    2015 Gym PRs
    Squat = 170kg ... Deadlift = No improvement ... Bench = No Improvement

  11. #36
    M&S Elite Member EdHz's Avatar
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    Yup, that's the sort of thing that went on in the documentary.

    Makes sense from the marketers perspective. Then they only have to pay the model for a single day, and there's no guarantee that your model will go on to look the way you want him to at the end of the 3 months or whatever, so save your money, hire a guy who is already ripped, then have him bloat up for the "before" later.


    No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training…what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. – Socrates

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdHz View Post
    There's a section on the documentary film Bigger, Stronger, Faster where the filmmaker goes to a photo shoot for a supp. The model tells him he uses steroids. Then, when the filmmaker speaks to a photographer, he is told that before and after photos are sometimes taken on the same day - changes in lighting, posture and makeup can make the same guy look remarkably different.

    I'm not saying that Clear Muscle engages in these sort of practices; I honestly don't know. But when there is anecdotal evidence of these sorts of things going on, I think it's very reasonable to be skeptical of "magic pill" type claims.
    I actually have a friend who is a fitness model. He poses in a number of magazines. To make the full 8 sections of his abdominal muscles (the 8-pack) show for a shoot, he will drop carbohydrates for two days prior to a shot. He will also drop his water consumption extremely low. The latter is not for the faint of hear and he has been hospitalised doing so. Since he is a professional he understands how to achieve this as 'safely' as possible. The next day, you can no longer see the full 8 sections anymore simply because he starts to drink and eat properly. Scary, huh?

    But one thing he certainly doesn't do - consume any supplements. Even though he is sponsored by a major brand. He simply takes their money, sells his free products on ebay and tells anyone who will listen how great the supplements are.

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    Coming Up The Ranks BlueRev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TnRob View Post
    BlueRev, maybe I've missed something so will go back through the thread and read again more closely ...but is the studies being conducted now with the free product loggers the basis for the real studies that are currently lacking, and the results from the current loggers part of the testing to later write for journals?

    I am one to believe in certain supplements, and have logged proof in other areas of the internet of my own supplement useage, but after 30+ years of training fullbody every other day I find it sort of ridiculous to not expect a greater gain out of those loggers even without the use of Clear Muscle. This is not meant as dig or to be disrespectful while at the same time is meant to be sensible with no need for science to evaluate the outcome of hard work.

    I just do not see Clear Muscle being magical in the aspect of gaining muscle beyond the workout regimen detailed in the studies MuscleTech is claiming, and the training that the loggers must follow. What I have seen with my own eyes is a bunch of guys chosen for the logging who claim to be training for three or more years yet look like they have never lifted anything heavier than their shoes, and half of them in their before pics look like they are purposely drooping their shoulders, backs bent over, etc, like they are intentionally looking as poorly trained and out of shape as possible to start these studies.

    So far, from what I have seen with my own eyes, and know personally of some of the study loggers chosen, it makes Clear Muscle look like a highly-priced ripoff. The after pics study pictures of most of the chosen loggers will surely show the subjects standing broad with shoulders back looking strong. Late night television advertisers tricks if you will.
    Uh... What?
    No.
    We send out hundreds upon hundreds of bottles of our supplements whenever we launch a new one.
    This is no different, We simply ran a promo.
    We made this a strict log and are making the users log everything from diet/workout routine/ etc
    This is not for any journal.. This is strictly to prove to the forum that the supplement works because so many people are skeptical about it.

    As for the "training for years" comment.
    We have most of our MuscleTech athletes also logging Clear Muscle on other social media outlets.. These guys are some of the best in their category's.
    No one is claiming CM to be magical... We are simply putting the science into the pill. Lookup HMB and HMB-FA the actual science behind it.... Not just what people "think"

    Seen from your own eyes? The product has been out less than a month, HMB-FA showed in multiple studies to prove effective.
    What more do you need?
    Are you judging this off science or "what you think"


    Again i will say this for the last time in here,
    No one at MuscleTech is Claiming this to be the "Magical pill" that replaces hard work and dedication. You will still need to bust your butt, Eat good, and have determination to change.
    To say this supplement cannot help with those lined up, Shows you're ignorance to the pathways and science behind HMB-FA based solely on your "It can't be true" thoughts.


    Quote Originally Posted by darrenash View Post
    I actually have a friend who is a fitness model. He poses in a number of magazines. To make the full 8 sections of his abdominal muscles (the 8-pack) show for a shoot, he will drop carbohydrates for two days prior to a shot. He will also drop his water consumption extremely low. The latter is not for the faint of hear and he has been hospitalised doing so. Since he is a professional he understands how to achieve this as 'safely' as possible. The next day, you can no longer see the full 8 sections anymore simply because he starts to drink and eat properly. Scary, huh?

    But one thing he certainly doesn't do - consume any supplements. Even though he is sponsored by a major brand. He simply takes their money, sells his free products on ebay and tells anyone who will listen how great the supplements are.
    Congrats, But that does not make supplements bad. Sorry.

    Are there bad company's in every industry? You bet. Look at any industry.

    With Clear Muscle we literally took an ingredient that proved itself to have major potential in studies, Paid enough money to make it MuscleTech exclusive, and now put it onto the market citing the study.
    Last edited by BlueRev; 05-29-2014 at 05:09 PM.
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  14. #39
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    First thing first... my statement of "what I see with my own eyes" is directed towards many of the people chosen to participate n the logs. Granted, some of the guys are buff while some have made claims of religious lifting regimens 4-6 days a week for over three years. The before pics of some of the guys..well, to put it nicely, will prove half the study of the logs being conducted are beyond tainted. It is those photos that lend credibility to my previous statement of "looking like a late night advertisers trick". Take my words FWIW but you should clearly understand exactly what I am saying. Alot of those chosen are in it for free supps, and do not hit the gym even half of the time they claim....and a heads up FYI, you'd be surprised how many of those bottles distributed have already been sold on Amazon and Ebay, further disrupting the true accuracy of the logs because with no product..the logs are falsified.


    HMB and HMB-FA aren't new, both have been studied for quite some time. The early studies (pre-2013) showed HMB-FA as a more efficient way to get HMB into and stored in the body. The current delivery is via HMB bonded to Calcium. The same claims of reduced muscle damage, etc are still made with HMB-FA. The theory is that if you can get HMB quicker and more efficiently into the muscles (the FA form is more efficient than the Calcium bonded form), you will reap the muscle damage blunting effect better.

    Most information on it was done by a manufacturer or boasted by supplement companies trying to sell the product. For a while back in 2011-12 it seems some 3rd party independent study on the nutrient gave it some credibility, but it was later learned that 3rd party interest had a financial interest.

    The science behind it? Not many people over the years ever made gains from HMB, that is the reason it went away into obscure corners and was basically forgotten about until a couple of years ago when the HMB-FA underwent studies.

    Btw, as you know, there was a big backlash against HMB back in the late 90s as a result of it being massively hyped and clearly not delivering much for trained lifters and definitely not being worth the money. I never assumed it didn't work at all, though, and thought it likely it probably did have some modest or at least slight value, though personally like you I couldn't tell the difference. What has happened now is that the raw materials cost of HMB is now far lower than in the past, even being included in products for geriatrics, so it's drawn new interest. It's possible that it's worth the now-much-lower cost; it certainly wasn't worth what it used to cost, but that's no longer the issue. CM however has the addition of the FA, but is still way overpriced.

    What MT has done with Clear Muscle may indeed work excellently. It may be the super supp of supplements, only time will tell. But knowing in advance how a large portion of the logs are gonna end, tells me MT will have to dig deeper into the advertising mindset to get this over for the long haul to the general pop of fitness and bodybuilding enthusiasts. No dig at MT, I'm smart enough to know what you guys aren't seeing is what may hurt you.

    My ignorance? LOL. I think my pics prove I know more about supplements/training/nutrition/health than most realize. Come at me yes, but give me the common courtesy of intelligence when you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TnRob View Post
    My ignorance? LOL. I think my pics prove I know more about supplements/training/nutrition/health than most realize. Come at me yes, but give me the common courtesy of intelligence when you do.
    Of course you are ignorant. Why? Because you don't simply except the hype of a magic pill or powder. The company say's it works. What more do you want ;-)?

    Now, I must get back to my magic powder creation. I'm thinking 'BUILDS 100Lb MUSCLE IN JUST 2 WEEKS!' as the tag. What do you think? :-D

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    Former M&S Editor Steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrenash View Post
    Personal attack? The post towards Doug was in good jest.
    Fair enough. The thread was reported and I was just providing a general warning. I don't have time to read the entire debate.
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    Coming Up The Ranks BlueRev's Avatar
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    What MT has done with Clear Muscle may indeed work excellently. It may be the super supp of supplements, only time will tell. But knowing in advance how a large portion of the logs are gonna end, tells me MT will have to dig deeper into the advertising mindset to get this over for the long haul to the general pop of fitness and bodybuilding enthusiasts. No dig at MT, I'm smart enough to know what you guys aren't seeing is what may hurt you.
    So give it a chance. You all are dismissing it so fast.
    We see the potential for it, we also see the downfall(not many results if they don't push themselves etc)
    We're willing to take that risk.

    @darren, He is a supplement company basher, Thats so evident in his posts.(in every thread) He also said hes done posting in here, But continues to bash the product.
    Wondering what if any darren you bring to this thread but negative.
    You haven't even take the time to read the studies.


    As for seeing your pic and knowledge, Being fit does not = knowledge.
    Not saying you don't have it... But x does not automatically just equal y.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Fair enough. The thread was reported and I was just providing a general warning. I don't have time to read the entire debate.
    Well as content manager, may I suggest that you do in fact read the debate before making statements? I understand that you have to respond if reports are made and will quite happily take rebukes from you since you are the site moderator, I assume?

    I don't intend to insult you or disrespect you in any way - and not just because you appear to be far bigger than me ;-)). I often read your articles and generally agree with much of what you say. But I would hope that you would investigate claims before 'punishing' me ;-).

    Anyhow, keep up the otherwise good work. This site is superior to any other training based sites available.

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    Am I anti-supplements? No. I just agree with comments made by many that this so called product is already available in much cheaper formats. And I believe this product to be over priced and most certainly over hyped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRev View Post
    So give it a chance. You all are dismissing it so fast.
    We see the potential for it, we also see the downfall(not many results if they don't push themselves etc)
    We're willing to take that risk.
    I'm keeping an open mind. There are a few people working the 12 week logs that I do trust, maybe not like with my life but yes I do trust a few of them so, if they give solid feedback at the end of the 12 weeks then CM will be in my supp cabinet to run a cpl of bottles for myself.

    Btw, please check your PMs.

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    Coming Up The Ranks BlueRev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrenash View Post
    Am I anti-supplements? No. I just agree with comments made by many that this so called product is already available in much cheaper formats. And I believe this product to be over priced and most certainly over hyped.
    Your information is very misleading to the general public... This supplement does have cheaper forms but ones that only reach a fraction of the plasma levels HMB-FA does. HMB-FA has proven to be superior yet you ignore those facts.
    I get what your stance is, You stated it many times.
    You also stated after your stance you were done posting in here.
    Last edited by BlueRev; 06-10-2014 at 04:39 PM.
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    CM logs around the internet are looking pretty solid so far. May be giving this a whirl for myself come nearer to end of the Summer. Still following several I feel I can trust with results up to this point.

  23. #48
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    Really interested to see how all the Clear Muscle Logs turn out. I didnt get the opportunity to get in on this one but will be following along with the logs and may have to try it out myself if others get good results.
    Bench: 350
    Squat: 405
    Deadlift: 455

  24. #49
    Coming Up The Ranks BlueRev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jes08 View Post
    Really interested to see how all the Clear Muscle Logs turn out. I didnt get the opportunity to get in on this one but will be following along with the logs and may have to try it out myself if others get good results.
    May be more chances in the future.
    Worth looking into trying on your own though also!
    Quote Originally Posted by TnRob View Post
    CM logs around the internet are looking pretty solid so far. May be giving this a whirl for myself come nearer to end of the Summer. Still following several I feel I can trust with results up to this point.
    They actually are going pretty well.
    It's hard to have successful logs, But with how strict ours were, im glad its going well.
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  25. #50
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    Just a little video we released to help explain it for some people.
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